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What is the path that someone must take to become a FFL sniper?
- Thread starter Lenofor
- Start date
canuckroyal
Active Member
CanadianFFL
Super Active Member
I think you should become legionnaire first. Then we'll see about sniper training and the GCP...
Tonyus
Hyper Active Member
This (and a lot of other) question(s) was (were) asked before. Multiple times even.
First, you have to GO to France to join, they do not take applications via mail. Also you have to PASS selection, also unavailable on-line or by mail. Then you must COMPLETE basic training (still in France), like every engagé volontaire. You also will have to prove at the shooting range that you can shoot well, no use dreaming about a ‘sniper job’ when you can't even hit water, falling out of a boat... Sending them your Call of Duty game plays and such will probably not impress anyone.
Good Luck.
First, you have to GO to France to join, they do not take applications via mail. Also you have to PASS selection, also unavailable on-line or by mail. Then you must COMPLETE basic training (still in France), like every engagé volontaire. You also will have to prove at the shooting range that you can shoot well, no use dreaming about a ‘sniper job’ when you can't even hit water, falling out of a boat... Sending them your Call of Duty game plays and such will probably not impress anyone.
Good Luck.
Rapace
Moderator
There are two different type of ‘snipers’ in the French Army (Legion or not) :
• Tireur de précision : they use the 7.62mm FR-F2 bolt action rifle, normally engaging targets up to 500-600m. In some very limited cases (Afghanistan) we've seen some using an HK-417 but that was an exception.
• Tireur d'élite : they use the 12.7mm (.5 caliber) PGM Hécate II bolt action rifle too (military name being FR 12.7). They work in binôme, with a spotter and will engage targets from 700-800m onwards (typically up to 1'500m)
Tireurs de précision are present in every infantry platoon (REP or not REP). Tireurs d'élite are generally regrouped in one team per regiment. You'll be offered one or other position if you (a) get selected (b) complete basic training demonstrating your shooting skills and... (c) ask for it.
• Tireur de précision : they use the 7.62mm FR-F2 bolt action rifle, normally engaging targets up to 500-600m. In some very limited cases (Afghanistan) we've seen some using an HK-417 but that was an exception.
• Tireur d'élite : they use the 12.7mm (.5 caliber) PGM Hécate II bolt action rifle too (military name being FR 12.7). They work in binôme, with a spotter and will engage targets from 700-800m onwards (typically up to 1'500m)
Tireurs de précision are present in every infantry platoon (REP or not REP). Tireurs d'élite are generally regrouped in one team per regiment. You'll be offered one or other position if you (a) get selected (b) complete basic training demonstrating your shooting skills and... (c) ask for it.
canuckroyal
Active Member
I find it interesting that you guys employ a "marksman" in every platoon, especially with a bolt-action rifle. What is the rationale behind this? Curious because we don't in the Canadian Army. Also do your sections employ grenadiers as I have never seen any French soldier with an M203 or equivalent weapon type?
As well, what is the standard organization of your platoons? We normally use 3x8 man sections with each section consisting of Sect Comd (Sergeant), Sect 2IC (Master Corporal or Senior Corporal), 2 Rifleman, 2 Grenadiers, 2 LMG Gunner's and a Platoon HQ which include Pl Comd (Officer), Pl 2IC (Warrant Officer), Signaller, Weapons Detachment Comd (Master Corporal), GPMG Team, 84mm Carl Gustav Team, 60mm Mortar Team.
Are you saying you don't have a 'Scout' in your Squads/Platoon??? The 'Marksman' is usually the scout too (different to the point man)
canuckroyal
Active Member
We do not have a designated scout in our platoons, normally I would have my lead section commander push out a fire-team if I needed a scout. It all depends on how I am organized though. If I am conducting a deliberate operation more then likely I would be organized with my sections staying as complete elements i.e. 1 Sect, 2 Sect, 3 Sect, HQ elm (normally if we are operating in Coy context as well my Wpns Det maybe detached).
If it is a fighting patrol I may chose to organize my platoon into a fighting patrol with a Security Element consisting of Alpha Sec, Bravo Sec, Charlie Sec, Delta Sec. A Fire Spt Element, an Assault element and an HQ element with Pl Comd, 2IC, Navigation Tm, Signaller, Medic. Normally I would use security elements as scouts in this case. Doctrinally the Security Teams would be a rifleman and a LMG Gunner.
As for scouts, well if I was a scout and employed as such I would most definitely want to have a LMG and not a Bolt-Action Rifle but that's just me
Our Snipers are specialized teams within our Battalions used primarily for surveillance on TAI's and Point Recce's and taking out HVTs. The training is very hard and the failure rate on the basic sniper course is very high, I'd imagine its quite similar to your tireur d'élite?
I am sure this is what he meant by dedicated marksman versus Sniper though - I don't think he is saying that each platoon has a Sniper... that would be ludicrous - but they have a dedicated 'Marksman' and I can see exactly why this would come in handy
.When you say you would prefer an LMG if you were a scout - I think you mean if you were a pointman right? As in the first person to usually make contact - a lot of the time on multiple targets and without often any notice hence needing to put down a lot of heavy fire really quick? As far as I am aware the scout would be more for engaging targets that might have you suppressed at longer ranges - like an enemy sniper or 'marksman' for example - where as your pointman is going to be your first to make contact when in a more close quarters situation or at least where range of sight is more limited i.e. making your way through the jungle or through compounds etc...
canuckroyal
Active Member
I am sure this is what he meant by dedicated marksman versus Sniper though - I don't think he is saying that each platoon has a Sniper... that would be ludicrous - but they have a dedicated 'Marksman' and I can see exactly why this would come in handy
When you say you would prefer an LMG if you were a scout - I think you mean if you were a pointman right? As in the first person to usually make contact - a lot of the time on multiple targets and without often any notice hence needing to put down a lot of heavy fire really quick? As far as I am aware the scout would be more for engaging targets that might have you suppressed at longer ranges - like an enemy sniper or 'marksman' for example - where as your pointman is going to be your first to make contact when in a more close quarters situation or at least where range of sight is more limited i.e. making your way through the jungle or through compounds etc...
Yes, when I say scout I mwan to scout ahead of my main body as I might deploy a fire-team a tactical bound ahead to act as early warning or provide security.
I totally understand the difference between designated marksman and sniper I am just wondering what the French rationale for this is? As opposed to bringing along another machine gunner or grenadier or whatever else because having a man with a bolt action rifle is going to sacrifice some firepower as you cannot provide the same volume of fire that an LMG, GPMG or even standard service rifle can. Not to mention you might be shit out of luck in a "close contact situation".
Probably as a counter-sniping measure... and for taking out visible targets from range as opposed to just stacking up on them...
RMD
Hyper Active Member
Rapace
Moderator
The standard infantry platoon (section in French) has a total of 39 men and is divided into various groupes (what you apparenlty call sections) :
• Groupe de commandement (platoon HQ) with 5 men:
a/ 1 chef de section (CDS) / platoon commander, normally a lieutenant (1st Lt) or sous-lieutenant (2nd Lt) or a sous-officier supérieur (senior NCO), an adjudant or adjudant-chef, having passed the proper exams to get the platoon commander qualification.
b/ 1 sous-officier adjoint (SOA) / platoon 2IC, normally a sergent-chef
c/ 1 radio operator
d/ 2 tireurs de précision (marksmen) with a FR-F2 bolt action rifle.
• Groupe d'Appui (could be translated as weapons section) with 5 men:b/ 1 sous-officier adjoint (SOA) / platoon 2IC, normally a sergent-chef
c/ 1 radio operator
d/ 2 tireurs de précision (marksmen) with a FR-F2 bolt action rifle.
a/ 1 chef de groupe (sergent or caporal-chef)
b/ 2 tireurs Eryx (wire-guided anti-tank missile)
c/ 2 pourvoyeurs Eryx (that is those ‘helping’ the Eryx operator and carrying the ammo).
• 3 Groupes de Combat with 7 men each :b/ 2 tireurs Eryx (wire-guided anti-tank missile)
c/ 2 pourvoyeurs Eryx (that is those ‘helping’ the Eryx operator and carrying the ammo).
a/ 1 chef de groupe
b/ 2 chefs d'équipe (squad (?) leader) called 300m and 600m.
c/ 4 grenadiers-voltigeurs (GV) (riflemen).
b/ 2 chefs d'équipe (squad (?) leader) called 300m and 600m.
c/ 4 grenadiers-voltigeurs (GV) (riflemen).
- In the first squad (300m), the leader has a FAMAS and the 2 GVs a FAMAS and 84mm AT4 rocket launcher. It was called ‘équipe choc’ in ‘my’ time, with the LRAC (Lance-Roquettes Anti-Char) 89mm that many Anciens must remember.
- In the second squad (600m) the leader has a FAMAS, one GV has a Minimi GPMG and the second GV a FAMAS and an individual grenade launcher.
• 4 vehicle crews, VAB (Véhicule de l'Avant Blindé) or VBCI (Véhicule Blindé de Combat d'Infanterie) of 2 men :- In the second squad (600m) the leader has a FAMAS, one GV has a Minimi GPMG and the second GV a FAMAS and an individual grenade launcher.
a/ 1 radio operator/gunner (serving the vehicle mounted weapon, either a 12.7 mm machine gun for the VAB or a 25mm cannon for the VBCI).
b/ 1 driver
Now the question why do we have marksmen as integral part of an infantry platoon? I have no ‘obvious’ answer to that, it's merely a matter of doctrine. I imagine that people in charge of defining the standard infantry platoon organisation have considered that in regular operations, an infantry platoon may be faced with situations where such competence is necessary, without having to rely on people ‘from the outside’ that may or may not be available when you need them. In a urban warfare context for example, it might be eliminating an entrenched machine-gun operator (or a ‘sniper’) blocking your progression, without knocking down the whole building where he's positioned... I agree that may come to the detriment of fire power, once the platoon has disembarked from their vehicles, but like any time you define an organisation, you have to make choices...b/ 1 driver
canuckroyal
Active Member
Yes interesting, I actually love the idea of having a team of marksmen with the platoon commander as it gives him an extra tool at his disposal for the fight and it makes total sense to me to have them with the command group.
Our "Groupes" are doctrinally 8 men in a dismounted context and in a mounted context when we use our LAV's they are 11 with a 3 man vehicle crew which includes (Driver (usually Cpl/Pte), Gunner (Cpl/Pte) and Crew Commander (MCpl (CplC))) The vehicles are integral to our sections and when the crew is mounted are simply referred to as 11A, 11B, 11C... etc when the dismounts leave the vehicle they assume the 11 call sign whatever it is and the our the vehicles become what we call "Zulu's" and are referred on the net as Z11A, Z11B, Z11 etc...
Thanks for this info its nice to see different ways of doing things cheers!
So in regards to (c) (I ask purely out of curiosity) - what Regiment would you ask for if you were wanting to be a Tireur d'élite (and of course you had attained (a) and (b)) - I assume 2REI would be the most logical... but being that you have mentioned each Regiment will have its own team of Tireurs d'élite would it not matter? Would you have a better chance of becoming a Tireur d'élite if you just said that you do not care what Regiment you go to that you just want to be a Tireur d'élite?
You people asking these "sniper" questions are trying to run before you've learned to walk. Have you seen how selective the selection process is now? 1 in 10 I heard? Worry about what exact job you're going to do once you're in your Regiment. Each Regiment has them but they've ALL gone through the selection process and basic training beforehand, followed by the "sniper" selection and training.
Ok so are you saying that they train you up on what each Regiment does while you are in basic training before you even get assigned/get to select a Regiment? Because it would be pretty hopeless to get in, pass basic, and then have no idea where you want to go, (assuming you got in the top ten for your group and were allowed to choose), because you had no real idea what Regiment does what and what requirements each Regiment has...
Basically you should have an idea what you would like to do because it's always better (but not always possible) to be able to do, as your job, something that you like doing. It should go something like this. You should know what you want to do (sniper for instance). You should go to selection (no snipers, everyone the same), get selected and go to basic training (still no snipers, everyones still the same), do well at basics so as to have the most choice possible when you go to orientation at the end of your training. There you should know whether you want infantry, tanks, paras, genie or whatever (there are still no snipers, and everyone is still the same), go to your Regiment, do your initial "regimental instruction" and there, if you've been one of the better recruits you might (just might) have the chance to ask about the possiblity of becoming a sniper. It's a long way off in the future before you are able to ask the question to someone who might be able to make it happen.
Rapace
Moderator
I said every Infantry regiment has their own ‘snipers’. In the Legion that means 2e REI (standard infantry) or 2e REP (airborne infantry). This said, notwithstanding all the caveats brought forward by Old Adj, about not putting the cart before the horses...
In my day in 4eme esc, the "tireur d'élite" was actually the new guy. If he could shoot or not never came into consideration, simple fact. On the orbat we had 1 bolt action per section and some one had to carry it !! The fact that we had VAB HOT 15 tons APCs with a missile rack on top, 4 missiles in the rack and another 8 in the vehicule, Hot missiles = 4km in 17 sec wire guided 3 VABs in a section, plus a MILAN post. Seriously wtf would we do with a bolt action? But the moral of the Legion is “don't ask questions just do the job your givenâ€. Oh, I forgot to mention each VAB had a Browning 1/2 inch as well. Each FAMAS can launch grenades, and if it goes tits up, each legionnaire has his opal (3 inch knife for making your casse croute) and would willingly show you the Camerone spirit..